Layout Options
Which layout option do you want to use?
Wide
Boxed
Color Schemes
Which theme color do you want to use? Select from here.
Reset color
Reset Background
Forums
New posts
Trending
Random
What's new
New posts
Latest activity
Rules
Libraries
New Audios
New Comments
Search Profile Audios
Clubs
Public Events
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Trending
Random
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Forums
General
Elysium
jesus
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Naofumi" data-source="post: 51683" data-attributes="member: 39"><p><img src="https://media3.giphy.com/media/FaovRTAVndmIXzdihz/200.gif" alt="Rainbow You Are Gay GIF" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p>If you desire even modicums of fame you ought to kill someone.</p><p></p><p>Feminists are desperately anxious to prove that women are as strong and as</p><p>capable as men. Clearly they are nagged by a fear that women may NOT be as strong</p><p>and as capable as men</p><p></p><p>Words like</p><p>"self-confidence",</p><p>"self-reliance",</p><p>"initiative",</p><p>"enterprise",</p><p>"optimism", etc., play little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary. The leftist is</p><p>antiindividualistic, pro-collectivist. He wants society to solve every one's problems</p><p>for them, satisfy everyone's needs for them, take care of them. He is not the sort of</p><p>person who has an inner sense of confidence in his ability to solve his own problems</p><p>and satisfy his own needs. The leftist is antagohistic to the concept of competition</p><p>because, deep inside, he feels like a loser.</p><p></p><p></p><p>But for most people it is through the power process — having a goal, making an</p><p>AUTONOMOUS effort and attaining the goal — that self-esteem, self-confidence and</p><p>a sense of power are acquired. When one does not have adequate opportunity to go</p><p>through the power process the consequences are (depending on the individual and on</p><p>the way the power process is disrupted) boredom, demoralization, low self-esteem,</p><p>inferiority feelings, defeatism, depression, anxiety, guilt, frustration, hostility, spouse</p><p></p><p>Among the abnormal conditions present in modern industrial society are</p><p>excessive density of population, isolation of man from nature, excessive rapidity of</p><p>social change and the breakdown of natural small-scale communities such as the</p><p>extended family, the village or the tribe.</p><p></p><p>It is well known that crowding increases stress and aggression. The degree of</p><p>crowding that exists today and the isolation of man from nature are consequences of</p><p>technological progress. All pre-industrial societies were predominantly rural. The</p><p>Industrial Revolution vastly increased the size of cities and the proportion of the</p><p>population that lives in them, and modern agricultural technology has made it</p><p>possible for the Earth to support a far denser population than it ever did before </p><p></p><p>First, there doubtless are differences in the strength of the drive for power.</p><p>Individuals with a weak drive for power may have relatively little need to go through</p><p>the power process, or at least relatively little need for autonomy in the power</p><p>process. These are docile types who would have been happy as plantation darkies in</p><p>the Old South. (We don't mean to sneer at the "plantation darkies" of the Old South.</p><p>To their credit, most of the slaves were NOT content with their servitude. We do</p><p>sneer at people who ARE content with servitude</p><p></p><p>In modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one's</p><p>physical needs. It is enough to go through a training program to acquire some petty</p><p>technical skill, then come to work on time and exert the very modest effort needed to</p><p>hold a job. The only requirements are a moderate amount of intelligence and, most of</p><p>all, simple OBEDIENCE. If one has those, society takes care of one from cradle to</p><p>grave. (Yes, there is an underclass that cannot take the physical necessities for</p><p>granted, but we are speaking here of mainstream society.) Thus it is not surprising</p><p>that modern society is full of surrogate activities. These include scientific work,</p><p>athletic achievement, humanitarian work, artistic and literary creation, climbing the</p><p>corporate ladder, acquisition of money and material goods far beyond the point at</p><p>which they cease to give any additional physical satisfaction, and social activism</p><p>when it addresses issues that are not important for the activist personally, as in the</p><p>case of white activists who work for the rights of nonwhite minorities. These are not</p><p>always PURE surrogate activities, since for many people they may be motivated in</p><p>part by needs other than the need to have some goal to pursue. Scientific work may</p><p>be motivated in part by a drive for prestige, artistic creation by a need to express</p><p>feelings, militant social activism by hostility. But for most people who pursue them,</p><p>these activities are in large part surrogate activities. For example, the majority of</p><p>scientists will probably agree that the "fulfillment" they get from their work is more</p><p>important than the money and prestige they earn.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The system does not and cannot exist to satisfy human needs. Instead, it is</p><p>human behavior that has to be modified to fit the needs of the system. This has</p><p>nothing to do with the political or social ideology that may pretend to guide the</p><p>technological system. It is not the fault of capitalism and it is not the fault of</p><p>socialism. It is the fault of technology, because the system is guided not by ideology</p><p>but by technical necessity. [18] Of course the system does satisfy many human needs,</p><p>but generally speaking it does this only to the extend that it is to the advantage of the</p><p>system to do it. It is the needs of the system that are paramount, not those of the</p><p>human being. For example, the system provides people with food because the system</p><p>couldn't function if everyone starved; it attends to people's psychological needs</p><p>whenever it can CONVENIENTLY do so, because it couldn't function if too many</p><p>people became depressed or rebellious. But the system, for good, solid, practical</p><p>reasons, must exert constant pressure on people to mold their behavior to the needs</p><p>of the system. To much waste accumulating? The government, the media, the</p><p>educational system, environmentalists, everyone inundates us with a mass of</p><p>propaganda about recycling. Need more technical personnel? A chorus of voices</p><p>exhorts kids to study science. No one stops to ask whether it is inhumane to force</p><p>adolescents to spend the bulk of their time studying subjects most of them hate.</p><p>When skilled workers are put out of a job by technical advances and have to undergo</p><p>"retraining," no one asks whether it is humiliating for them to be pushed around in</p><p>this way. It is simply taken for granted that everyone must bow to technical necessity.</p><p>and for good reason: If human needs were put before technical necessity there would</p><p>be economic problems, unemployment, shortages or worse. The concept of "mental</p><p>health" in our society is defined largely by the extent to which an individual behaves</p><p>in accord with the needs of the system and does so withoutshowing signs of stress. </p><p>employees assemble only one section of a catalogue, had each assemble a whole</p><p>catalogue, and this was supposed to give them a sense of purpose and achievement.</p><p>Some companies have tried to give their employees more autonomy in their work, but</p><p>for practical reasons this usually can be done only to a very limited extent, and in any</p><p>case employees are never given autonomy as to ultimate goals — their "autonomous"</p><p>efforts can never be directed toward goals that they select personally, but only toward</p><p>their employer's goals, such as the survival and growth of the company. Any company</p><p>would soon go out of business if it permitted its employees to act otherwise.</p><p>Similarly, in any enterprise within a socialist system, workers must direct their</p><p>efforts toward the goals of the enterprise, otherwise the enterprise will not serve its</p><p>purpose as part of the system. Once again, for purely technical reasons it is not</p><p>possible for most individuals or small groups to have much autonomy in industrial</p><p>society. Even the small-business owner commonly has only limited autonomy. Apart</p><p>from the necessity of government regulation, he is restricted by the fact that he must</p><p>fit into the economic system and conform to its requirements. For instance, when</p><p>someone develops a new technology, the smallbusiness person often has to use that</p><p>technology whether he wants to or not, in order to remain competitive<img src="https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/media/images/54247000/jpg/_54247858_composite.jpg" alt="Profile: Anders Behring Breivik - BBC News" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/OY7ELD6P4JNH5A4SZ2YK6UIUBY.jpg" alt="Canadian factory activity grows at slowest pace in 17 months | Reuters" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-23/Why-have-meat-factories-become-hotbeds-for-coronavirus-outbreaks--RyERNDEg1O/img/3b52401123164585ba7609c4ea6936e3/3b52401123164585ba7609c4ea6936e3.jpeg" alt="Why have meat factories become hotbeds for coronavirus outbreaks? - CGTN" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.8b0cacdf4a7952111634266df3c25760?rik=dbVXHK9brNHL4A&riu=http%3a%2f%2fchinavoicecoil.com%2fimages%2ffactory%2fEmpolyee.jpg&ehk=RWVY97nUkLF4Is1lFS%2fA%2bOl9YVDSTiUUaOml%2bSFadiI%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0" alt="Factory" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://c8.alamy.com/comp/W8HRWA/file-chinese-workers-make-toys-at-a-toy-factory-in-dongguan-city-south-chinas-guangdong-province-29-march-2014-about-500-businesses-closed-the-W8HRWA.jpg" alt="Toy factory guangdong hi-res stock photography and images - Alamy" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.AaBxtgoXVvtRSmrk_05K1AHaEK?w=289&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7" alt="Image result for factory" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.SMexx0J-jrwaz-LJ11T1UQHaDC?w=332&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7" alt="Image result for factory" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th/id/OIP.iFZEZpHVJqBOxWLYk6ZIIwHaE7?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain&o=7&rm=3" alt="Canadian Factory and Wholesale Slump Confirms Economic Slowdown - Bloomberg" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.FcNe4-RzmZ5KcH7OV309yAHaFP?w=280&h=198&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7" alt="Image result for factory" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.He9VmFxlydkqwPRK2y6drwHaFM?w=283&h=198&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7" alt="Image result for factory" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.JdBkWv2G6P7bPkqRSABnmAHaE8?w=282&h=188&c=7&r=0&o=7&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7&rm=3" alt="Image result for school" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.uw78Ff0gQZo1S9mAm5YQFgHaE8?w=241&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=7&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7&rm=3" alt="Image result for school" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.DgJnj8GlutyDmY-HIS-u7gAAAA?w=201&h=315&c=7&r=0&o=7&dpr=2.8&pid=1.7&rm=3" alt="Image result for advanced mathematical papers" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.abH0QgXAGbopEbodZGCqowHaIr?w=201&h=235&c=7&r=0&o=7&dpr=2.8&pid=1.7&rm=3" alt="Image result for advanced mathematical papers" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.hKgVB7ts1gC6A_MsprxKBAHaKe?w=201&h=284&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=2.4&pid=1.7" alt="Image result for advanced mathematical papers" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.vYUHBrhyVDpTX0Nn180blwHaJl?w=201&h=261&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=2.4&pid=1.7" alt="Image result for advanced mathematical papers" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.IBx0Il4pKFmaLGiWQwOZrgAAAA?w=256&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=5.2&pid=1.7" alt="Image result for news " class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.hFASKkuNduvGb9yw4NN2LAHaEK?w=283&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=5.2&pid=1.7" alt="Image result for news " class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><img src="https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.1f1558ae79d7e84411b90f29ee8b1ea6?rik=uGm8k0Ok4MQDtA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fdesignconsulting.com.au%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2014%2f02%2ffactory_design_suite_option_b.jpg&ehk=nPaZ5KZQKaDrhZaZvlTp6m2G%2brwshDkJkSft8j87HS8%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0" alt="What Are The Best Tools For Factory Design And Management? Pt. 2 | Design Consulting" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Naofumi, post: 51683, member: 39"] [IMG alt="Rainbow You Are Gay GIF"]https://media3.giphy.com/media/FaovRTAVndmIXzdihz/200.gif[/IMG] If you desire even modicums of fame you ought to kill someone. Feminists are desperately anxious to prove that women are as strong and as capable as men. Clearly they are nagged by a fear that women may NOT be as strong and as capable as men Words like "self-confidence", "self-reliance", "initiative", "enterprise", "optimism", etc., play little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary. The leftist is antiindividualistic, pro-collectivist. He wants society to solve every one's problems for them, satisfy everyone's needs for them, take care of them. He is not the sort of person who has an inner sense of confidence in his ability to solve his own problems and satisfy his own needs. The leftist is antagohistic to the concept of competition because, deep inside, he feels like a loser. But for most people it is through the power process — having a goal, making an AUTONOMOUS effort and attaining the goal — that self-esteem, self-confidence and a sense of power are acquired. When one does not have adequate opportunity to go through the power process the consequences are (depending on the individual and on the way the power process is disrupted) boredom, demoralization, low self-esteem, inferiority feelings, defeatism, depression, anxiety, guilt, frustration, hostility, spouse Among the abnormal conditions present in modern industrial society are excessive density of population, isolation of man from nature, excessive rapidity of social change and the breakdown of natural small-scale communities such as the extended family, the village or the tribe. It is well known that crowding increases stress and aggression. The degree of crowding that exists today and the isolation of man from nature are consequences of technological progress. All pre-industrial societies were predominantly rural. The Industrial Revolution vastly increased the size of cities and the proportion of the population that lives in them, and modern agricultural technology has made it possible for the Earth to support a far denser population than it ever did before First, there doubtless are differences in the strength of the drive for power. Individuals with a weak drive for power may have relatively little need to go through the power process, or at least relatively little need for autonomy in the power process. These are docile types who would have been happy as plantation darkies in the Old South. (We don't mean to sneer at the "plantation darkies" of the Old South. To their credit, most of the slaves were NOT content with their servitude. We do sneer at people who ARE content with servitude In modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one's physical needs. It is enough to go through a training program to acquire some petty technical skill, then come to work on time and exert the very modest effort needed to hold a job. The only requirements are a moderate amount of intelligence and, most of all, simple OBEDIENCE. If one has those, society takes care of one from cradle to grave. (Yes, there is an underclass that cannot take the physical necessities for granted, but we are speaking here of mainstream society.) Thus it is not surprising that modern society is full of surrogate activities. These include scientific work, athletic achievement, humanitarian work, artistic and literary creation, climbing the corporate ladder, acquisition of money and material goods far beyond the point at which they cease to give any additional physical satisfaction, and social activism when it addresses issues that are not important for the activist personally, as in the case of white activists who work for the rights of nonwhite minorities. These are not always PURE surrogate activities, since for many people they may be motivated in part by needs other than the need to have some goal to pursue. Scientific work may be motivated in part by a drive for prestige, artistic creation by a need to express feelings, militant social activism by hostility. But for most people who pursue them, these activities are in large part surrogate activities. For example, the majority of scientists will probably agree that the "fulfillment" they get from their work is more important than the money and prestige they earn. The system does not and cannot exist to satisfy human needs. Instead, it is human behavior that has to be modified to fit the needs of the system. This has nothing to do with the political or social ideology that may pretend to guide the technological system. It is not the fault of capitalism and it is not the fault of socialism. It is the fault of technology, because the system is guided not by ideology but by technical necessity. [18] Of course the system does satisfy many human needs, but generally speaking it does this only to the extend that it is to the advantage of the system to do it. It is the needs of the system that are paramount, not those of the human being. For example, the system provides people with food because the system couldn't function if everyone starved; it attends to people's psychological needs whenever it can CONVENIENTLY do so, because it couldn't function if too many people became depressed or rebellious. But the system, for good, solid, practical reasons, must exert constant pressure on people to mold their behavior to the needs of the system. To much waste accumulating? The government, the media, the educational system, environmentalists, everyone inundates us with a mass of propaganda about recycling. Need more technical personnel? A chorus of voices exhorts kids to study science. No one stops to ask whether it is inhumane to force adolescents to spend the bulk of their time studying subjects most of them hate. When skilled workers are put out of a job by technical advances and have to undergo "retraining," no one asks whether it is humiliating for them to be pushed around in this way. It is simply taken for granted that everyone must bow to technical necessity. and for good reason: If human needs were put before technical necessity there would be economic problems, unemployment, shortages or worse. The concept of "mental health" in our society is defined largely by the extent to which an individual behaves in accord with the needs of the system and does so withoutshowing signs of stress. employees assemble only one section of a catalogue, had each assemble a whole catalogue, and this was supposed to give them a sense of purpose and achievement. Some companies have tried to give their employees more autonomy in their work, but for practical reasons this usually can be done only to a very limited extent, and in any case employees are never given autonomy as to ultimate goals — their "autonomous" efforts can never be directed toward goals that they select personally, but only toward their employer's goals, such as the survival and growth of the company. Any company would soon go out of business if it permitted its employees to act otherwise. Similarly, in any enterprise within a socialist system, workers must direct their efforts toward the goals of the enterprise, otherwise the enterprise will not serve its purpose as part of the system. Once again, for purely technical reasons it is not possible for most individuals or small groups to have much autonomy in industrial society. Even the small-business owner commonly has only limited autonomy. Apart from the necessity of government regulation, he is restricted by the fact that he must fit into the economic system and conform to its requirements. For instance, when someone develops a new technology, the smallbusiness person often has to use that technology whether he wants to or not, in order to remain competitive[IMG alt="Profile: Anders Behring Breivik - BBC News"]https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/media/images/54247000/jpg/_54247858_composite.jpg[/IMG][IMG alt="Canadian factory activity grows at slowest pace in 17 months | Reuters"]https://cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/OY7ELD6P4JNH5A4SZ2YK6UIUBY.jpg[/IMG][IMG alt="Why have meat factories become hotbeds for coronavirus outbreaks? - CGTN"]https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-23/Why-have-meat-factories-become-hotbeds-for-coronavirus-outbreaks--RyERNDEg1O/img/3b52401123164585ba7609c4ea6936e3/3b52401123164585ba7609c4ea6936e3.jpeg[/IMG][IMG alt="Factory"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.8b0cacdf4a7952111634266df3c25760?rik=dbVXHK9brNHL4A&riu=http%3a%2f%2fchinavoicecoil.com%2fimages%2ffactory%2fEmpolyee.jpg&ehk=RWVY97nUkLF4Is1lFS%2fA%2bOl9YVDSTiUUaOml%2bSFadiI%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0[/IMG][IMG alt="Toy factory guangdong hi-res stock photography and images - Alamy"]https://c8.alamy.com/comp/W8HRWA/file-chinese-workers-make-toys-at-a-toy-factory-in-dongguan-city-south-chinas-guangdong-province-29-march-2014-about-500-businesses-closed-the-W8HRWA.jpg[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for factory"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.AaBxtgoXVvtRSmrk_05K1AHaEK?w=289&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for factory"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.SMexx0J-jrwaz-LJ11T1UQHaDC?w=332&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7[/IMG][IMG alt="Canadian Factory and Wholesale Slump Confirms Economic Slowdown - Bloomberg"]https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th/id/OIP.iFZEZpHVJqBOxWLYk6ZIIwHaE7?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain&o=7&rm=3[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for factory"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.FcNe4-RzmZ5KcH7OV309yAHaFP?w=280&h=198&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for factory"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.He9VmFxlydkqwPRK2y6drwHaFM?w=283&h=198&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for school"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.JdBkWv2G6P7bPkqRSABnmAHaE8?w=282&h=188&c=7&r=0&o=7&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7&rm=3[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for school"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.uw78Ff0gQZo1S9mAm5YQFgHaE8?w=241&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=7&dpr=3.1&pid=1.7&rm=3[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for advanced mathematical papers"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.DgJnj8GlutyDmY-HIS-u7gAAAA?w=201&h=315&c=7&r=0&o=7&dpr=2.8&pid=1.7&rm=3[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for advanced mathematical papers"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.abH0QgXAGbopEbodZGCqowHaIr?w=201&h=235&c=7&r=0&o=7&dpr=2.8&pid=1.7&rm=3[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for advanced mathematical papers"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.hKgVB7ts1gC6A_MsprxKBAHaKe?w=201&h=284&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=2.4&pid=1.7[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for advanced mathematical papers"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.vYUHBrhyVDpTX0Nn180blwHaJl?w=201&h=261&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=2.4&pid=1.7[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for news "]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.IBx0Il4pKFmaLGiWQwOZrgAAAA?w=256&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=5.2&pid=1.7[/IMG][IMG alt="Image result for news "]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.hFASKkuNduvGb9yw4NN2LAHaEK?w=283&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=5.2&pid=1.7[/IMG][IMG alt="What Are The Best Tools For Factory Design And Management? Pt. 2 | Design Consulting"]https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.1f1558ae79d7e84411b90f29ee8b1ea6?rik=uGm8k0Ok4MQDtA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fdesignconsulting.com.au%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2014%2f02%2ffactory_design_suite_option_b.jpg&ehk=nPaZ5KZQKaDrhZaZvlTp6m2G%2brwshDkJkSft8j87HS8%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0[/IMG] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Name
Verification
Post reply
Forums
General
Elysium
jesus
Top
