Success "You will live in misery and die in misery. There's no escape." -UG Krishnamurti

[Two-jay]

"People call me an 'enlightened man' — I detest that term — they can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, andI discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God."


“We are not created for any grander purpose than the ants that are there or the flies that are hovering around us or the mosquitoes that are sucking our blood.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out

“Society has put before you the ideal of a 'perfect man'. No matter in which culture you were born, you have scriptural doctrines and traditions handed down to you to tell you how to behave. You are told that through due practice you can even eventually come into the state attained by the sages, saints and saviors of mankind. And so you try to control your behavior, to control your thoughts, to be something unnatural.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

“The body is a fortuitous concourse of atoms. There is no death for the body, only an exchange of atoms. Their changing places and taking different forms is what we call 'death.' It's a process which restores the energy level in nature that has gone down. In reality, nothing is born and nothing is dead.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

“The fact is that we don't want to be free. What is responsible for our problems is the fear of losing what we have and what we know.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out

“I discovered for myself and by myself that there is no self to realize -- that's the realization I am talking about. It comes as a shattering blow. It hits you like a thunderbolt. You have invested everything in one basket, self-realization, and, in
the end, suddenly you discover that there is no self to discover, no self to realize -- and you say to yourself "What the hell have I been doing all my life?!" That blasts you.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

“I am not out to liberate anybody. You have to liberate yourself, and you are unable to do that. What I have to say will not do it. I am only interested in describing this state, in clearing away the occultation and mystification in which those people in the 'holy business' have shrouded the whole thing. Maybe I can convince you not to waste a lot of time and energy, looking for a state which does not exist except in your imagination.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

“Life has to be described in pure and simple physical and physiological terms. It must be demystified and depsychologised”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

“Wanting has to go. Wanting to be free from something that is not there is what you call "sorrow.” Wanting to be free from sorrow is sorrow. There is no other sorrow. You don't want to be free from sorrow. You just think about sorrow, without acting. Your thinking endlessly about being free from sorrow is only more material for sorrow. Thinking does not put an end to sorrow. Sorrow is there for you as long as you think. There is actually no sorrow there to be free from. Thinking about and struggling against "sorrow" is sorrow. Since you can't stop thinking, and thinking is sorrow, you will always suffer. There is no way out, no escape.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, Mind Is a Myth: Disquieting Conversations with the Man Called U.G.

“Human thinking is born out of this neurological defect in the human species. Anything that is born out of human thinking is destructive. Thought is destructive. Thought is a protective mechanism. It draws frontiers around itself, and it wants to protect itself. It is for the same reason that we also draw lines on this planet and extend them as far as we can.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, U.G. Krishnamurti: Love : Love implies division, separation…

“freedom exists not in finding answers, but in the dissolution of all questions.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, U. G. Krishnamurti: Understanding : It is the absence of the demand for understanding…

“The fear of extinction will probably bring us together, not 'love' or feeling of brotherhood.”
― U. G. Krishnamurti, UG Krishnamurti: Society : It's terror, not love that keeps us together…

“You say that I am living in illusion. But poverty, work, war, they are not illusions. Are they? In what sense am I being deluded? What you experience through your separative consciousness is an illusion. You can't say that falling bombs are an illusion. It is not an illusion, only your experience of it is an illusion. The reality of the world that you are experiencing now is an illusion. That is all I am trying to say. If you say that”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, Mind Is a Myth: Disquieting Conversations with the Man Called U.G.

“The problem is this: nature has assembled all these species on this planet. The human species is no more important than any other species on this planet. For some reason, man accorded himself a superior place in this scheme of things. He thinks that he is created for some grander purpose than, if I could give a crude example, the mosquito that is sucking his blood. What is responsible for this is the value system that we have created. And the value system has come out of the religious thinking of man. Man has created religion because it gives him a cover. This demand to fulfill himself, to seek something out there was made imperative because of this self-consciousness in you which occurred somewhere along the line of the evolutionary process. Man separated himself from the totality of nature.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out: Dialogues with Krishnamurti

“Understanding is the absence of the demand for understanding -- now or tomorrow.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, U. G. Krishnamurti: Understanding : It is the absence of the demand for understanding…
“The body cannot be afraid of death. The movement that is created by society or culture is what does not want to come to an end. . . . What you are afraid of is not death. In fact, you don't want to be free from fear. . . . It is the fear that makes you believe that you are living and that you will be dead. What we do not want is the fear to come to an end. That is why we have invented all these new minds, new science, new talk, therapies, choiceless awareness and various other gimmicks. Fear is the very thing that you do not want to be free from. What you call “yourself” is fear. The “you” is born out of fear; it lives in fear, functions in fear and dies in fear.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out: Dialogues with Krishnamurti

“Nature is interested in only two things—to survive and to reproduce one like itself. Anything you superimpose on that, all the cultural input, is responsible for the boredom of man. So we have varieties of religious experience. You are not satisfied with your own religious teachings or games; so you bring in others from India, Asia or China. They become interesting because they are something new. You pick up a new language and try to speak it and use it to feel more important. But basically, it is the same thing.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out: Dialogues with Krishnamurti

“You will be peaceful when all your ideas about awareness are dropped and you begin to function like a computer. You must be a machine, function automatically in this world, never questioning your actions before, during, or after they occur.”
― U G Krishnamurti, U.G. Krishnamurti: Certainty : Life has no beginning, no end...

“Life is simply a process of stimulus and response; and stimulus and response are one unitary movement.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, U.G. Krishnamurti: Truth : There is no such thing as truth…

“I still maintain that it is not love, compassion, humanism, or brotherly sentiments that will save mankind. No, not at all. It is the sheer terror of extinction that can save us, if anything can.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out: Dialogues with Krishnamurti

“What I am emphasizing is that we are trying to solve our basic human problems through a psychological framework, when actually the problem is neurological. The body is involved. Take desire. As long as there is a living body, there will be desire. It is natural. Thought has interfered and trying to suppress, control, and moralize about desire, to the detriment of mankind. We are trying to solve the ‘problem’ of desire through thought. It is thinking that has created the problem.”
― U G Krishnamurti, U.G. Krishnamurti: Certainty : Life has no beginning, no end...]

“Somewhere along the line in human consciousness, there occurred self-consciousness. (When I use the word "self" I don't mean that there is a self or a center there.) That consciousness separated man from the totality of things. Man, in the beginning, was a frightened being. He turned everything that was uncontrollable into something divine or cosmic. and worshiped it. It was in that frame of mind that he created, quote and unquote, "God." So culture, is responsible for whatever you are. I maintain that all the political institutions and ideologies we have today are the outgrowth of the same religious thinking of man. The spiritual teachers are in a way responsible for the tragedy of mankind.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

The Teachings of U. G. Krishnamurti: Collected Works: The Mystique of Enlightenment, Courage to Stand Alone, Mind is a Myth, The Natural State | UG Krishnamurti | download on Z-Library

Read online or download for free from Z-Library the Book: The Teachings of U. G. Krishnamurti: Collected Works: The Mystique of Enlightenment, Courage to, Author: UG Krishnamurti, Publisher: e-artnow, ISBN: B0919NQ5Q6, Year: 2021, Language: English, Format: EPUB, Filesize: 989 KB

z-library.sk

 

[GGWP]

xD and so the pendulum swings the other way, twojei. I think you are starting to comprehend what I was saying, but I would not take Krishnamurti's words as gospel (he is just another dude with an opinion, even he says that he is no guru).

The mind does shape the human world, in my opinion Krishnamurti takes the rationalist sentiment too far (it looks as if his cheater detection mechanism massively backfired and shot him into depressive stupor after he realized that mysticism was not getting him the results he wanted). Our minds are 'engineered' to extract only certain features from existence that are beneficial for our continued survival, and certain concepts can only be rationalized by humans due to our unique brains. Take a chair for instance. No other animal would understand that a chair is a chair, but for humans it is a chair because neural patterns have spread and established reality consensus. Humans could extend this positivist sentiment and delineate that a chair is a collection of atoms which are themselves a combination of quarks or wavelengths, but the truth is that 'quarks', 'atoms' and 'wavelengths' don't exist in nature. These are hominid terms with the teleological aim to 'conquer' and 'understand' and further 'utilize'. An atom is thus not a grounded reality inasmuch as it is a neural pattern (a model or image of the world spread between people) that has spread and established a self-reinforcing reality consensus among most humans. We have learned to 'separate' an atom from its environment (which would otherwise be a benign construct). The bedrock of so-called empirical reality rests on the ability to parse objects in a way that is only intuitive for humans and thus is inseparable from human subjectivity. What Krishnamurti is now preaching is radical atheism which attempts to establish 'objective reality' when such a construct is not something humans can comprehend. What this really stands for is intellectual imperialism related to radical nihilism.

You must be a machine, function automatically in this world, never questioning your actions before, during, or after they occur

There is a massive issue with this line of thinking in that humans invented machines in the first place, so where does a human get off on assessing itself as machine-like? Rationalist mind-virus.

“Life is simply a process of stimulus and response; and stimulus and response are one unitary movement.”

A subjective opinion dressed up as dogma. Stimulus and response are human teleological concepts. Everything is 'unitary' inasmuch as the ability for humans to parse individual objects from a natural canvas is inbuilt into cognition for survival. Multiplicity is a pattern that only certain organisms can detect because it benefits survival.

So again, we loop back around. Religion is not 'false' or 'deceitful', it's an alternative reality consensus that produces different effects. In a true and naturally selected sense, atheism produces greater 'fruits' than religiosity in modern environments, therefore it is selected for as reality consensus. By sheer process of elimination the only things that exist are those that can survive and reproduce more efficiently, but some atheists take this to mean that religion is 'worthless' or 'non-existent' and science is somehow 'true and objective', which is non-sequitur and stems from this same intellectual imperialism. There is a negative connotation here, but I would like to express that I think it's more symbiotic - you subscribe to this reality consensus and get to reap its bared fruits. Atheism and rationalism are the most profitable ideologies of today, but they do not always have to be.

Some of my favourite philosophers on this topic are Whitehead, Bergson and Kant.
A great paper on this topic comes from Hoffman et al. - https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-015-0890-8

 

[GGWP]

To be clear twojei there is nothing wrong with your previous philosophy, and there is nothing wrong with Krishnamurti's philosophy either. The domain of religion and ideology is to comprehend human-derived perception rather than the 'objective' world. 'Enlightenment' is a concept that some humans are able to comprehend, just as others can only comprehend a 'material' world, just as a mathematician could comprehend a 'graphical' world. 'material' and 'mystic' interpretations are both valid ways of understanding the world and the distinction is in the language used.

 

[Two-jay]

xD and so the pendulum swings the other way, twojei. I think you are starting to comprehend what I was saying, but I would not take Krishnamurti's words as gospel (he is just another dude with an opinion, even he says that he is no guru).

The mind does shape the human world, in my opinion Krishnamurti takes the rationalist sentiment too far (it looks as if his cheater detection mechanism massively backfired and shot him into depressive stupor after he realized that mysticism was not getting him the results he wanted). Our minds are 'engineered' to extract only certain features from existence that are beneficial for our continued survival, and certain concepts can only be rationalized by humans due to our unique brains. Take a chair for instance. No other animal would understand that a chair is a chair, but for humans it is a chair because neural patterns have spread and established reality consensus. Humans could extend this positivist sentiment and delineate that a chair is a collection of atoms which are themselves a combination of quarks or wavelengths, but the truth is that 'quarks', 'atoms' and 'wavelengths' don't exist in nature. These are hominid terms with the teleological aim to 'conquer' and 'understand' and further 'utilize'. An atom is thus not a grounded reality inasmuch as it is a neural pattern (a model or image of the world spread between people) that has spread and established a self-reinforcing reality consensus among most humans. We have learned to 'separate' an atom from its environment (which would otherwise be a benign construct). The bedrock of so-called empirical reality rests on the ability to parse objects in a way that is only intuitive for humans and thus is inseparable from human subjectivity. What Krishnamurti is now preaching is radical atheism which attempts to establish 'objective reality' when such a construct is not something humans can comprehend. What this really stands for is intellectual imperialism related to radical nihilism.


There is a massive issue with this line of thinking in that humans invented machines in the first place, so where does a human get off on assessing itself as machine-like? Rationalist mind-virus.


A subjective opinion dressed up as dogma. Stimulus and response are human teleological concepts. Everything is 'unitary' inasmuch as the ability for humans to parse individual objects from a natural canvas is inbuilt into cognition for survival. Multiplicity is a pattern that only certain organisms can detect because it benefits survival.

So again, we loop back around. Religion is not 'false' or 'deceitful', it's an alternative reality consensus that produces different effects. In a true and naturally selected sense, atheism produces greater 'fruits' than religiosity in modern environments, therefore it is selected for as reality consensus. By sheer process of elimination the only things that exist are those that can survive and reproduce more efficiently, but some atheists take this to mean that religion is 'worthless' or 'non-existent' and science is somehow 'true and objective', which is non-sequitur and stems from this same intellectual imperialism. There is a negative connotation here, but I would like to express that I think it's more symbiotic - you subscribe to this reality consensus and get to reap its bared fruits. Atheism and rationalism are the most profitable ideologies of today, but they do not always have to be.

Some of my favourite philosophers on this topic are Whitehead, Bergson and Kant.
A great paper on this topic comes from Hoffman et al. - https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-015-0890-8

To be clear twojei there is nothing wrong with your previous philosophy, and there is nothing wrong with Krishnamurti's philosophy either. The domain of religion and ideology is to comprehend human-derived perception rather than the 'objective' world. 'Enlightenment' is a concept that some humans are able to comprehend, just as others can only comprehend a 'material' world, just as a mathematician could comprehend a 'graphical' world. 'material' and 'mystic' interpretations are both valid ways of understanding the world and the distinction is in the language used.

He's just another dog barking.

 

[newsincerity]

he's right on many things

@GGWP a chair is a chair, don't complicate it

 

[Two-jay]

An atom is thus not a grounded reality inasmuch as it is a neural pattern (a model or image of the world spread between people) that has spread and established a self-reinforcing reality consensus among most humans. We have learned to 'separate' an atom from its environment (which would otherwise be a benign construct). The bedrock of so-called empirical reality rests on the ability to parse objects in a way that is only intuitive for humans and thus is inseparable from human subjectivity. What Krishnamurti is now preaching is radical atheism which attempts to establish 'objective reality' when such a construct is not something humans can comprehend. What this really stands for is intellectual imperialism related to radical nihilism.

"Then the thought occurred to me, ‘This consciousness comes back
to nāmarūpa. It does not go beyond it… Nāmarūpa is a necessary
foundation for consciousness, consciousness is a necessary
foundation for nāmarūpa. From nāmarūpa as a necessary
foundation come the six sense spheres… contact… vedanā… Thus
is the origination of this entire mass of dukkha… ’ Vision arose,
gnosis arose, wisdom arose, higher knowledge arose, illumination
arose within me in regard to things never heard before."

Empirical reality collapses onto itself, just as emptyness is empty.

Are you prepared to collapse onto yourself too?

 

[Two-jay]

To be clear twojei there is nothing wrong with your previous philosophy, and there is nothing wrong with Krishnamurti's philosophy either. The domain of religion and ideology is to comprehend human-derived perception rather than the 'objective' world. 'Enlightenment' is a concept that some humans are able to comprehend, just as others can only comprehend a 'material' world, just as a mathematician could comprehend a 'graphical' world. 'material' and 'mystic' interpretations are both valid ways of understanding the world and the distinction is in the language used.

Yeah, it makes sense!

You mentioned the use of other kind of tools to deal with things or deconstruct them so that ego realizes they do not constitute a solid reality by themselves, but the tools are the tools. There are varieties, and it is this attachment and over-simplification of reality, which is in fact ends a super projected mental reality which causes suffering. You can use "scientific tools" or "spiritual tools", but the important thing for them is to do their work!

You are very wise Patrickus.

 

[Myst]

"People call me an 'enlightened man' — I detest that term — they can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, andI discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God."


“We are not created for any grander purpose than the ants that are there or the flies that are hovering around us or the mosquitoes that are sucking our blood.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out

“Society has put before you the ideal of a 'perfect man'. No matter in which culture you were born, you have scriptural doctrines and traditions handed down to you to tell you how to behave. You are told that through due practice you can even eventually come into the state attained by the sages, saints and saviors of mankind. And so you try to control your behavior, to control your thoughts, to be something unnatural.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

“The body is a fortuitous concourse of atoms. There is no death for the body, only an exchange of atoms. Their changing places and taking different forms is what we call 'death.' It's a process which restores the energy level in nature that has gone down. In reality, nothing is born and nothing is dead.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

“The fact is that we don't want to be free. What is responsible for our problems is the fear of losing what we have and what we know.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out

“I discovered for myself and by myself that there is no self to realize -- that's the realization I am talking about. It comes as a shattering blow. It hits you like a thunderbolt. You have invested everything in one basket, self-realization, and, in
the end, suddenly you discover that there is no self to discover, no self to realize -- and you say to yourself "What the hell have I been doing all my life?!" That blasts you.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

“I am not out to liberate anybody. You have to liberate yourself, and you are unable to do that. What I have to say will not do it. I am only interested in describing this state, in clearing away the occultation and mystification in which those people in the 'holy business' have shrouded the whole thing. Maybe I can convince you not to waste a lot of time and energy, looking for a state which does not exist except in your imagination.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

“Life has to be described in pure and simple physical and physiological terms. It must be demystified and depsychologised”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

“Wanting has to go. Wanting to be free from something that is not there is what you call "sorrow.” Wanting to be free from sorrow is sorrow. There is no other sorrow. You don't want to be free from sorrow. You just think about sorrow, without acting. Your thinking endlessly about being free from sorrow is only more material for sorrow. Thinking does not put an end to sorrow. Sorrow is there for you as long as you think. There is actually no sorrow there to be free from. Thinking about and struggling against "sorrow" is sorrow. Since you can't stop thinking, and thinking is sorrow, you will always suffer. There is no way out, no escape.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, Mind Is a Myth: Disquieting Conversations with the Man Called U.G.

“Human thinking is born out of this neurological defect in the human species. Anything that is born out of human thinking is destructive. Thought is destructive. Thought is a protective mechanism. It draws frontiers around itself, and it wants to protect itself. It is for the same reason that we also draw lines on this planet and extend them as far as we can.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, U.G. Krishnamurti: Love : Love implies division, separation…

“freedom exists not in finding answers, but in the dissolution of all questions.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, U. G. Krishnamurti: Understanding : It is the absence of the demand for understanding…

“The fear of extinction will probably bring us together, not 'love' or feeling of brotherhood.”
― U. G. Krishnamurti, UG Krishnamurti: Society : It's terror, not love that keeps us together…

“You say that I am living in illusion. But poverty, work, war, they are not illusions. Are they? In what sense am I being deluded? What you experience through your separative consciousness is an illusion. You can't say that falling bombs are an illusion. It is not an illusion, only your experience of it is an illusion. The reality of the world that you are experiencing now is an illusion. That is all I am trying to say. If you say that”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, Mind Is a Myth: Disquieting Conversations with the Man Called U.G.

“The problem is this: nature has assembled all these species on this planet. The human species is no more important than any other species on this planet. For some reason, man accorded himself a superior place in this scheme of things. He thinks that he is created for some grander purpose than, if I could give a crude example, the mosquito that is sucking his blood. What is responsible for this is the value system that we have created. And the value system has come out of the religious thinking of man. Man has created religion because it gives him a cover. This demand to fulfill himself, to seek something out there was made imperative because of this self-consciousness in you which occurred somewhere along the line of the evolutionary process. Man separated himself from the totality of nature.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out: Dialogues with Krishnamurti

“Understanding is the absence of the demand for understanding -- now or tomorrow.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, U. G. Krishnamurti: Understanding : It is the absence of the demand for understanding…
“The body cannot be afraid of death. The movement that is created by society or culture is what does not want to come to an end. . . . What you are afraid of is not death. In fact, you don't want to be free from fear. . . . It is the fear that makes you believe that you are living and that you will be dead. What we do not want is the fear to come to an end. That is why we have invented all these new minds, new science, new talk, therapies, choiceless awareness and various other gimmicks. Fear is the very thing that you do not want to be free from. What you call “yourself” is fear. The “you” is born out of fear; it lives in fear, functions in fear and dies in fear.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out: Dialogues with Krishnamurti

“Nature is interested in only two things—to survive and to reproduce one like itself. Anything you superimpose on that, all the cultural input, is responsible for the boredom of man. So we have varieties of religious experience. You are not satisfied with your own religious teachings or games; so you bring in others from India, Asia or China. They become interesting because they are something new. You pick up a new language and try to speak it and use it to feel more important. But basically, it is the same thing.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out: Dialogues with Krishnamurti

“You will be peaceful when all your ideas about awareness are dropped and you begin to function like a computer. You must be a machine, function automatically in this world, never questioning your actions before, during, or after they occur.”
― U G Krishnamurti, U.G. Krishnamurti: Certainty : Life has no beginning, no end...

“Life is simply a process of stimulus and response; and stimulus and response are one unitary movement.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, U.G. Krishnamurti: Truth : There is no such thing as truth…

“I still maintain that it is not love, compassion, humanism, or brotherly sentiments that will save mankind. No, not at all. It is the sheer terror of extinction that can save us, if anything can.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti, No Way Out: Dialogues with Krishnamurti

“What I am emphasizing is that we are trying to solve our basic human problems through a psychological framework, when actually the problem is neurological. The body is involved. Take desire. As long as there is a living body, there will be desire. It is natural. Thought has interfered and trying to suppress, control, and moralize about desire, to the detriment of mankind. We are trying to solve the ‘problem’ of desire through thought. It is thinking that has created the problem.”
― U G Krishnamurti, U.G. Krishnamurti: Certainty : Life has no beginning, no end...]

“Somewhere along the line in human consciousness, there occurred self-consciousness. (When I use the word "self" I don't mean that there is a self or a center there.) That consciousness separated man from the totality of things. Man, in the beginning, was a frightened being. He turned everything that was uncontrollable into something divine or cosmic. and worshiped it. It was in that frame of mind that he created, quote and unquote, "God." So culture, is responsible for whatever you are. I maintain that all the political institutions and ideologies we have today are the outgrowth of the same religious thinking of man. The spiritual teachers are in a way responsible for the tragedy of mankind.”
― U.G. Krishnamurti

The Teachings of U. G. Krishnamurti: Collected Works: The Mystique of Enlightenment, Courage to Stand Alone, Mind is a Myth, The Natural State | UG Krishnamurti | download on Z-Library

Read online or download for free from Z-Library the Book: The Teachings of U. G. Krishnamurti: Collected Works: The Mystique of Enlightenment, Courage to, Author: UG Krishnamurti, Publisher: e-artnow, ISBN: B0919NQ5Q6, Year: 2021, Language: English, Format: EPUB, Filesize: 989 KB

z-library.sk

Disagree but interesting read