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<blockquote data-quote="CPT馬冠宇" data-source="post: 75755" data-attributes="member: 162">Alright look, I&#039;m not here to defend the rap sheet. NUMEC and Apollo? Yeah the uranium walked, Dimona didn&#039;t fuel itself on good vibes. Lavon Affair was a documented false flag they copped to decades later. Sabra and Shatila? Their own Kahan Commission pinned Sharon personally, that&#039;s not me saying it that&#039;s them. Samson Option, undeclared nukes, NPT holdout, all real, all on the record. Gaza right now is a horror show and you can indict it on the laws of war all day without even needing to get into what Hamas did or didn&#039;t do. None of that is up for debate between us and I&#039;m not gonna sit here pretending otherwise.But there&#039;s a jump happening that I want to poke at, the jump from &quot;this state has done monstrous shit&quot; to &quot;this state has no right to exist.&quot; Because if that&#039;s the rule, congratulations, we just deleted almost every country on the map. US firebombed Tokyo, nuked two cities, ran MKUltra, propped up half the death squads in Latin America, lied a million people into Iraqi graves. Russia&#039;s got Chechnya, Holodomor, Bucha stacked up. China has Tibet, Xinjiang, Tiananmen. Turkey still won&#039;t say the word Armenia out loud. Britain colonized basically everything that held still long enough. If atrocity voids legitimacy we&#039;re down to Iceland and maybe Bhutan.Right to exist isn&#039;t about the conduct of a government. Governments get voted out, couped, indicted, replaced. It&#039;s about whether a people gets a patch of dirt where they&#039;re not living at the mercy of someone else&#039;s mood that decade. That&#039;s the only principle I actually give a shit about and I apply it across the board, Kurds, Armenians, Tibetans, Jews, whoever&#039;s next on the chopping block. Two thousand years of Jews finding out exactly what happens when the host country turns, from Rome to Spain 1492 to the Pale of Settlement to Babi Yar to the ovens, is a pretty solid empirical case for wanting a door you hold the keys to. That&#039;s not mysticism, that&#039;s just reading history.You can want Netanyahu in the Hague, you can want the aid cut, you can want the settlements sanctioned into dust, you can want the nukes declared and inspected, you can think the lobby has DC by the balls, and it does. All of that can be true at the same time as &quot;Jews, like every other people on earth, get a homeland.&quot; Those are two different claims and collapsing them into one is where the argument goes off the rails. Indict the state, prosecute the crimes, strip the money, I&#039;m with you on damn near all of it. But the move from there to &quot;this one specific ethnic group is the one group that doesn&#039;t get self-determination&quot; isn&#039;t some sharp anti-imperialist take, it&#039;s just the oldest song on earth with a new verse.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="CPT馬冠宇, post: 75755, member: 162"] Alright look, I'm not here to defend the rap sheet. NUMEC and Apollo? Yeah the uranium walked, Dimona didn't fuel itself on good vibes. Lavon Affair was a documented false flag they copped to decades later. Sabra and Shatila? Their own Kahan Commission pinned Sharon personally, that's not me saying it that's them. Samson Option, undeclared nukes, NPT holdout, all real, all on the record. Gaza right now is a horror show and you can indict it on the laws of war all day without even needing to get into what Hamas did or didn't do. None of that is up for debate between us and I'm not gonna sit here pretending otherwise. But there's a jump happening that I want to poke at, the jump from "this state has done monstrous shit" to "this state has no right to exist." Because if that's the rule, congratulations, we just deleted almost every country on the map. US firebombed Tokyo, nuked two cities, ran MKUltra, propped up half the death squads in Latin America, lied a million people into Iraqi graves. Russia's got Chechnya, Holodomor, Bucha stacked up. China has Tibet, Xinjiang, Tiananmen. Turkey still won't say the word Armenia out loud. Britain colonized basically everything that held still long enough. If atrocity voids legitimacy we're down to Iceland and maybe Bhutan. Right to exist isn't about the conduct of a government. Governments get voted out, couped, indicted, replaced. It's about whether a people gets a patch of dirt where they're not living at the mercy of someone else's mood that decade. That's the only principle I actually give a shit about and I apply it across the board, Kurds, Armenians, Tibetans, Jews, whoever's next on the chopping block. Two thousand years of Jews finding out exactly what happens when the host country turns, from Rome to Spain 1492 to the Pale of Settlement to Babi Yar to the ovens, is a pretty solid empirical case for wanting a door you hold the keys to. That's not mysticism, that's just reading history. You can want Netanyahu in the Hague, you can want the aid cut, you can want the settlements sanctioned into dust, you can want the nukes declared and inspected, you can think the lobby has DC by the balls, and it does. All of that can be true at the same time as "Jews, like every other people on earth, get a homeland." Those are two different claims and collapsing them into one is where the argument goes off the rails. Indict the state, prosecute the crimes, strip the money, I'm with you on damn near all of it. But the move from there to "this one specific ethnic group is the one group that doesn't get self-determination" isn't some sharp anti-imperialist take, it's just the oldest song on earth with a new verse. [/QUOTE]

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