Depression Why did he leave me

[somethingtobelievein]

I'd say it's because people want to have sex with them. And yes they look better. These things generally do not apply to men attempting to appear to be women.

at least IRL. Maybe online with filters. But if you want online attention, you can just use AI to appear as a woman now.

 

[GripMaxxing]

These things generally do not apply to men attempting to appear to be women.

And what if they do look like a woman?

 

[somethingtobelievein]

I can give you every single statistics to try and convince you but I know you will just end up saying something like “I don’t see it that way.” Or some shit. You don’t even need statistics to know this, just think about it critically, which gender suffers the most and commit suicide more on average?

Well . . . you didn't really give me any though. I'm willing to go through and have the discussion with you. I've already said my peace on my logic. I did not mean to derail your thread about abandonment (although it kinda already was.)

I know men commit suicide more, and I greatly sympathize with the problems men have. I have not seen evidence that trying to women fixes these things. It's your life, though, and if you want to try that I hope it goes well.

 

[somethingtobelievein]

And what if they do look like a woman?

Well for one, irl they usually don't. Again we're talking statistics on what percent could present well. Two I suppose you hit a wall when you try to have a relationship and the man finds out. Or you're choosing from a lesser tier of men who are desperate enough /gay.

 

[GripMaxxing]

Well . . . you didn't really give me any though.

Because sticking a ball into a triangular shaped hole would lead nowhere.

I'm willing to go through and have the discussion with you

If you are as enthused as you say, why not look for it yourself? I don’t really owe you anything

 

[GripMaxxing]

Well for one, irl they usually don't.

How do you know?

 

[somethingtobelievein]

How do you know?

Experience. I'm not going to say they can't. Just that I haven't personally seen one, while I've seen multiple that were trying very hard and never did.

 

[GripMaxxing]

Or you're choosing from a lesser tier of men who are desperate enough /gay.

Still beats being a little incel loser with zero options.

 

[GripMaxxing]

Experience. I'm not going to say they can't. Just that I haven't personally seen one, while I've seen multiple that were trying very hard and never did.

Fuck your experience lol

 

[somethingtobelievein]

If you are as enthused as you say, why not look for it yourself? I don’t really owe you anything

From Grok:

The 41% figure (lifetime suicide attempts) is from the 2014 Williams Institute analysis of the 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS; n=6,456 trans/gender non-conforming U.S. respondents, a large convenience sample).


Breakdown by transition direction (MtF vs. FtM) from that source:

• Male-to-female (trans women/MtF): 42%
• Female-to-male (trans men/FtM): 46%

Slightly higher among FtM. Assigned-female-at-birth respondents overall: 44%; assigned-male-at-birth: 38%.
____

I asked a follow-up about the average coming down to 41%, and that seems to be from people who crossdress but don't transition.

 

[somethingtobelievein]

From Grok:

The 41% figure (lifetime suicide attempts) is from the 2014 Williams Institute analysis of the 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS; n=6,456 trans/gender non-conforming U.S. respondents, a large convenience sample).


Breakdown by transition direction (MtF vs. FtM) from that source:

• Male-to-female (trans women/MtF): 42%
• Female-to-male (trans men/FtM): 46%

Slightly higher among FtM. Assigned-female-at-birth respondents overall: 44%; assigned-male-at-birth: 38%.
____

I asked a follow-up about the average coming down to 41%, and that seems to be from people who crossdress but don't transition.

So no, not a difference like you implied.

 

[GripMaxxing]

attempts

 

[somethingtobelievein]

Fuck your experience lol

Well no I'm saying my experience is that I would NOT fuck them

(jk)

Is my experience different than typical, really?

Still beats being a little incel loser with zero options.

I hear your frustration. The other option is to get better.

But I do understand that there is despair. Again, it's your call.

 

[GripMaxxing]

Is my experience different than typical, really?

Yeah

 

[somethingtobelievein]

I can't actually reply to it, but you highlight "attempts." Men generally have a high success rate on suicide compared to women.

 

[somethingtobelievein]

Yeah

Not seeing great data either way (often studies with "pre-selected" trans, meaning we aren't getting data on the "average" or median experience). But:

Dating willingness (strongest proxy for practical attraction): In a 2018/2019 study (N=958, mostly young Canadian/U.S. adults), only 3.3% of self-identified heterosexual men said they would consider dating a transgender person (trans man or trans woman). Straight women were at 1.8%. The vast majority of heterosexuals excluded trans partners entirely.

 

[somethingtobelievein]

Anyway I g2g . Good luck. Happy to discuss another time or leave you alone if you'd prefer.

 

[GripMaxxing]

Anyway I g2g . Good luck. Happy to discuss another time or leave you alone if you'd prefer.

There is nothing to discuss further. I think we both have made up our minds

 

[sadcel]

Why does everyone I love always leave me, what did I do to deserve this? I just hate being lonely.

everyone leave brocel

 

[wait whattt? :o]

Well for one, irl they usually don't

Key word: usually.

Back in high school, when I had longer hair (down to about my shoulders) and the school demanded we wear masks, many mistook me for a girl. In fact, even after taking off my mask, some were still unsure. And do not hit me with the "you were just underdeveloped" bullshit, because I pretty much look the same as I was in high school (baby face genes :/).

Anyway, I will be honest, your "logic" was pretty much bullshit. You suggested that the "logical" thing to do was to send people who are "upset" or "distressed" by their perceived gender to therapy because it is usually by "trauma" or "influence that promotes" here:

Thinking 'i shouldn't be male' is a thought that comes from some kind of hurt or trauma.

This paper on gender dysphoria seems to suggest it's more than just "trauma" or "influence" though:

Genetics, androgen exposure, neuroanatomy, brain connectivity, history of trauma, parents with psychological disorders, and being raised by less than two parents are associated with gender dysphoria.

Source: Gender Dysphoria and Its Non-Surgical and Surgical Treatments

So, you're right, history of trauma, as well as other parent related issues are related, though this not nearly enough from the looks of it. Framing it as if it is only due to trauma or otherwise is too reductive, and you did not even cite anything to back this up, but you expect @GripMaxxing to cite stuff (I honestly hate that we have to debate her existence).

Here, you hilariously show that you don't even understand how treatment of gender dysphoria actually works:

But then someone comes in and says 'I'm a man but my brain says I shouldn't be,' we've started saying, "sure, here are meds to try and fight your biology and a bill." It's something we'll look back on like lobotomies or leeching and realize it was not the proper way to treat identity crisis.

You claim they don't go through therapy and suggest that they just "fight their biology", except they do...

Of the many recommended treatments for gender dysphoria, the first non-operative option is psychosocial therapy and counseling. The overall goal of psychosocial therapy is to improve the patient’s quality of life through open and consistent communication.

Source: same paper as cited above

They literally go through therapy. In fact, it's usually the first step. Why? Because gender confusion and ambiguity is normal, so one must first ACTUALLY go through therapy and be diagnosed with gender dysphoria before any of this even happens. This is at least the case in established health care systems. I don't know how it is everywhere, but this is how it should be anyway because, well, you don't want false alarms, right?

Oh, and how do they diagnose you with gender dysphoria? Well, just like any diagnosis, they do it through the DSM-5 (I believe they released the DSM-6 now but I can't find access to it). You can find the entry on "Gender Dysphoria" in page 496 (PDF) or page 451 in the book itself. So they DO recognize it as some sort of mental disorder.



By the way, I just want to say real quick: I knew none of this information prior to posting this. I looked it up and it was JUST there before me. I didn't even know they had a non-operative treatment before the operative treatments. What I am trying to say is: all it took was a simple search and you could've seen the truth, but I honestly don't think you actually care to know about this, so I find it laughable how confidently incorrect you decided to be today because, idk, you find trans people ugly or something? Who knows?

 

[GripMaxxing]

but you expect @

@GripMaxxing to cite stuff (I honestly hate that we have to debate her existence).

It’s just pointless trying to stick a square object into triangular hole, I knew the user had their mind already made up lol

 

[wait whattt? :o]

It’s just pointless trying to stick a square object into triangular hole, I knew the user had their mind already made up lol

It's hilarious. Made multiple claims with NO citations whatsoever. Then wants to talk about "well you didn't give me data to discuss about". Okay buddy -.-

 

[somethingtobelievein]

Felt like I was pretty cordial. Didn't mean to upset you guys so much.

Key word: usually.

I mean, yeah? I gave a bunch of disclaimers through the conversation that I was not talking about all people or that any outcome was guaranteed. If I failed to, then yes exceptions exist.

So my logic was bullshit because I said something right but didn't go into more detail or paste a link to a paper.

you don't even understand how treatment of gender dysphoria actually works:

I understand that it normally doesn't if it involves trying to deny gender.

They literally go through therapy. In fact, it's usually the first step.

I'm sorry, and I do apologize. I should have made this more clear. When I said they go into the doctors office and are immediately given pills, I was exaggerating for effect. I see now that it was folly to think that would be evident.

It's hilarious. Made multiple claims with NO citations whatsoever. Then wants to talk about "well you didn't give me data to discuss about". Okay buddy -.-

I did then go search the underlying source for the underlying 41% number being discussed. What was shared with me was a screenshot of a chart of ratios with no source or raw data.

(I honestly hate that we have to debate her existence).

Oh I'm sorry. I thought @GripMaxxing was a man taking female hormones based on what he said throughout the conversation.

Also I'm terribly, terribly sorry if I implied he's a bot. I believe he exists.


Still wish you both the best.

 

[wait whattt? :o]

Felt like I was pretty cordial. Didn't mean to upset you guys so much.

I am not upset at you, but I understand my language was a bit harsh. If that's how I come off, I will refrain. My fault on that.

So my logic was bullshit because I said something right but didn't go into more detail or paste a link to a paper.

No. You didn't simply say something right but "didn't go into more detail". You framed and made a clear point that:

Thinking 'i shouldn't be male' is a thought that comes from some kind of hurt or trauma. Even if you believe it, stick with me on the concept that you wouldn't have had to consider it without hurt or trauma. Consider then a hypothetical that shows up a lot: someone doing just fine in life who hates themselves and thinks badly of themselves. The traditional treatment is therapy or self reflection where you think through 'well if I factually think through things I'm doing just as well or better than other people, so why is my brain telling me I'm a piece of shit?' then the person is supposed to figure out 'oh yeah when I was an impressionable kid my parent did xyz to make me think I needed to be extremely successful or I'd be a disappointment. So I guess my self hatred is not based in reality and I should train myself to view things more factually.'

You made sure to frame it in the lenses of trauma and/or hurt. I said you were right about a specific thing, not that your framing was right. Your framing was wrong because it was too reductive, and I cited why. So your understanding is already faulty to begin with because it is based on the wrong premises.

I understand that it normally doesn't if it involves trying to deny gender.

What does this even mean? Feels like you are not making a point here. "Denying gender". The whole point of this is to attempt to find out if the person has gender dysphoria or not (through therapy), and THEN attempt to treat it OR redirect to another therapist if the problem is something else. There is no denial of gender here, because if they denied gender, then what are they even discussing here? Are we even talking about the same thing?

I'm sorry, and I do apologize. I should have made this more clear. When I said they go into the doctors office and are immediately given pills, I was exaggerating for effect. I see now that it was folly to think that would be evident.

I don't buy this tbh. You made a clear point and you went for a specific framing that treatment of gender dysphoria should be done through therapy while modern treatment of gender dysphoria was erroneously done through gender-affirming care. You weren't doing some "effect". You were just being wrong. But I accept your apology. At least you realize your approach was incorrect here.

I did then go search the underlying source for the underlying 41% number being discussed. What was shared with me was a screenshot of a chart of ratios with no source or raw data.

Okay, let's address this unfortunately high number of suicidal ideation in trans folks.
Suicidal ideation, in research, is a more critical construct for its predictive power for suicidal attempts.

It is also unfortunately the case that research on suicide risk among trans folks is meager as one brief literature review article comments:

Transgender individuals are at increased risk for suicide relative to nontransgender people. Despite this, research on transgender people's risk for suicide mirrors their marginalization at the societal level; there is simply not enough research dedicated to understanding increased suicide risk among transgender people.

Source: Suicide Risk Among Transgender People: A Prevalent Problem in Critical Need of Empirical and Theoretical Research

However, there is still research. One research study shows an interesting finding:

Violence, discrimination, and transition status significantly predicted SI. Compared with individuals with no plans to transition, individuals with plans or who were living as their identified gender reported greater odds of lifetime SI.

Source: Predictors of Suicidal Ideation in a Statewide Sample of Transgender Individuals

The same study proposes this explanation:

Trans individuals who were planning to transition, or who had already engaged in the transition process, were significantly more likely to report lifetime SI compared with those with no transition plans. However, because we did not collect data on the timing of SI, the temporal associations are unknown. There are a few possible explanations for these associations. One possibility is that transitioning might be related to more frequent experiences of marginalization and thus elevated levels of stress.

Also, to credit @GripMaxxing, the study DOES affirm there are higher SI in FtM individuals than MtF:

Notably, FTM participants were significantly more likely to report experiences of victimization and lifetime SI than MTF participants.

The statistics is in the paper, by the way. The statistics is presented in a table so I didn't bother copying it here since it would take too much space.

I would get into the discussion and the theoretical perspectives that the literature review article provided but I feel this is getting too lengthy and I am afraid I am putting too much effort for someone that, at least in my opinion, does not show much enthusiasm in actually engaging with this. So instead, I will dump this part because it addresses something you said earlier:

We talk about how trans commit suicide so much, and often the reason given from trans activists is that they aren't able to be "themselves." Problem is that even when they get the transition surgery the suicide rate stays the same, so getting the "confirmation" doesn't help. Which makes sense.

But the brief literature review article says:

Individual factors that are potentially protective against suicide ideation include perceived coping abilities, optimism, gender identity acceptance and disclosure, and reasons for living (Moody and Smith 2013; Moody et al. 2015; Testa et al. 2017).

This is in the "Correlates of suicide ideation".
Now, "potentially" does some lifting there, I admit, but you can now see why people not being "themselves" is not enough. It's not JUST the confirmation, but also the discrimination and violence they experience as a result of transitioning. The statement above shows that "gender identity acceptance and disclosure" is a potentially protective factor against suicidal ideation, and THAT makes sense.

Edit: forget to add a little tidbit addressing another point you made

 

[GripMaxxing]

the study DOES affirm there are higher SI in FtM individuals than MtF:

Told ya being male sucks lol