Discussion Evolution is fact, except...

[Suigin Trismegistus]

One can debate evolutionary theory. As for myself, I agree evolution over the timescales that life has existed on Earth has happened and is real.

However, you cannot debate what follows. That is, the peculiar schema of DNA codon's second letter.

Looking at the standard genetic code shared by all life on Earth, there is something wild about the second base in each codon. A codon is an instruction that consists of sequence of three letters, each of which are one of the four nucleotide base-pairs (C, G, A or T). There are a total of 4x4x4 = 64 codons. The instructions code for either one of the fundamental proteins (essential amino acids) that are building blocks for the rest of our biological chemistry, or as start (methionine) and stop codes. The codon table is in this graphic below:

If you're into fitness and take BCAAs/EAAs in your preworkout, you're probably familiar with some of the names in the table. Now when you reorder the codons by that second base in the sequence from C to T to G to A, as has been done in this particular table, and then look at the nucleon count (basically the total number of protons + neutrons) in the amino acids they code for, you get this super clean, linear progression and symmetry that looks almost engineered.

Main highlights:

• The amino acids fall into neat contiguous blocks of 16 codons each, with really high linearity in how their complexity ramps up (R² values hitting like 0.97 in big chunks).
• Different second bases line up with specific chemical traits:
  • T-second codons mostly code for hydrophobic amino acids with NO₂ groups.
  • G-second ones handle more complex NₓOₓ-containing amino acids.
  • C-second leans toward 4-codon synonyms and metal-affinity stuff.
  • A-second has a lot of 2-codon synonyms plus the stop codons.

There's symmetry around the start codon (methionine/ATG) and the stops, including a mirrored placement of tryptophan. The whole setup seems to balance competing chemical pressures (like nucleon count vs. nitrogen-oxygen affinities) in a way that feels pre-planned rather than randomly stumbled into.

Running the numbers and estimates the odds of this level of organization, symmetry, and property grouping happening purely by chance at something like 1 in 3.4x10e27 (that's 3.4 octillion). Running Monte Carlo sims shows random codon assignments almost never get anywhere close to this kind of fit.

This couldn't have evolved step-by-step because the full codon table has to exist before protein-based life and evolution can even kick off. Plus, it showed up super fast geologically speaking (within roughly 60 million years after Earth's oceans formed). This is evidence of some kind of "intent". It doesn't necessarily mean "God" did it, or that it was a "miracle" of some sort, but suggests the code might carry a "crypto-trademark" or branding that locks it in as the one immutable version. There are many other possible codon tables that could have formed, but we got a super-optimized one with a peculiar setup.

So how the heck does a pattern this improbable show up fully formed?

It's not possible for a larger codon table (perhaps with 4 or more letters) to have evolved into the one we currently have. But it could have been engineered by entities who emerged from the chaos of the Multiverse with a more random and less optimized codon table (or were ultimately themselves engineered by an initial species of such entities). Ergo, intelligently directed evolution by a race of Engineers and they seeded life on Earth/Solar System/Galaxy/our corner of he Universe.

I'm summarizing this from another great article by The Ethical Skeptic, where he dives way into it, if you want all of the irrefutable details:

The Peculiar Schema of DNA Codon's Second Letter

The second letter (base) of the three digit DNA codon bears striking schema of such extraordinary improbability, that the question arises, "How did this 1 in 3.4 octillion occurrence happen at all, given that it could not evolve because one needs the XXX DNA codex before one can have evolution...

theethicalskeptic.com

So what do you think?

 

[Suigin Trismegistus]

I'm also trusting that the high number of programmers/software engineers on our forum can at least appreciate the above.

 

[qqq]

I’ve always sensed that I’m being watched 24/7 and the spectators are changeable

 

[ZZEBRA813]

I’ve always sensed that I’m being watched 24/7 and the spectators are changeable

Frog with boner

 

[Suigin Trismegistus]

I just realized I probably should have opened this thread with "You can't debate evolution, it's a fact." But when I went back to change my opening line, I was getting tired and chose my words poorly. My intent was to say something to the effect of "I see you have another thread debating evolution, but you're arguing over the wrong thing. The pro-evolution people are right, except they're missing this one thing..."

My apologies.

 

[cosmicx16]

@newsincerity read
i will reply later suigin i like this thread a lot

 

[ZZEBRA813]

@newsincerity read
i will reply later suigin i like this thread a lot

OMG ITS HOLO, SEX WITH HOLO PERFECT PUSSY NOW

 

[cosmicx16]

OMG ITS HOLO, SEX WITH HOLO PERFECT PUSSY NOW

Holo sounds very nice and agreeable but this is not her, message at the tone pls

 

[Suigin Trismegistus]

@newsincerity read
i will reply later suigin i like this thread a lot

You never replied later.

 

[cosmicx16]

You never replied later.

I didn't have much to add and didn't want to be out of my depth making brazen statements about the work with my low IQ and 0 knowledge of molecular biology, sorry. I reiterate that point now, seeing that the author of this work stated it took him 10 years: 10 years, to conclusively perfect his approach in organizing and expressing the logic of the standard codex into the presentation seen within the second graph (taken from his words).
Despite not understanding it fully, I was able to appreciate the simplicity with which the logical partitions organizing graph data were expressed, and as he even said in the article, "accurate is simple" so his simple result does truly reveal the precision and expertise of his science. I just had a good time reading the full article. His full explanations of necessary probabilities/events from history required for DNA's known arrangement, were very explicate where even I could grasp it. I'll quote it here.

14 conventional occurrences/discoveries in series (all are required in this order), would merely reduce the inference from this set of data, from conclusively deductive (falsifying) to inductive (still evidence but weaker – weak enough for me to merely say ‘Ehh, that’s strange’ instead of write an article on it).

1) If we found a way for our LUCA organism to assemble XX nucleic acid codon structure inside 60 million years in a hostile environment, AND

2) That LUCA organism then could invent codon structure all over again based on different Standard Code XX Codon structures, AND

3) Then did this over and over such that over 2.1 x 10^12 codon structures were deployed into the crush of this hostile environment which was Earth (trillions of LUCA candidates were discovered in the crust of Mars for instance – all with different Codon XX word structures), AND

4) If a flawless chemical feedback could be established from the LUCA organism, such that the nucleic acids, all using different Codon structures (not like life biochemistry is now), could measure the nucleon count in its assigned amino acid molecule structure (a process which does not exist) by means of the process which assigned it its assigned amino acid, and this process got lucky enough to be flawless, AND

5) This process only selected for every other codon digit (a disciplined transcription nucleic acid-skipping process), without error and just happened to like a specific codon digit instead of the specific nucleic acid chemistry itself, AND

6) Once that life LUCA had become ubiquitous and the other trillion forms had died out, then nucleic acid assignments could still evolve such that a chemical bias towards or away from Nitrites and the various forms of N-O stem could be developed by second digit of the XX codon (again), AND

7) This second affinity did not disrupt the attainments from the first affinity because the mechanism in 4) above had gone away, AND

8) We found out that the Earth was much much older than we had thought, and there were an extra 4 billion years we missed in the aging data, AND

9) Then we found out that the Universe was actually 40 billion years old and not 13.2 as we had thought, AND

10) Then for some reason all this process ceased immediately and no affinity could be developed ever again (or the factor which introduced the mechanism for affinity of any kind to happen nucleon or N-O stem, went away itself)

11) Then and only then, the third XXX digit of the codon was added to this LUCA organism, AND

12) Accidentally multiple tryptophan, methionine start, and no-amino acid stop codes (were somehow detectable anyway) were pared OUT of their former slots, AND

13) Then, the stop codes were moved to the end by being displaced by this entire process, AND

14) Then all the chemistry and mechanisms which allowed all this to happen, were swept way in a cosmic catastrophe… but life one small pocket of LUCA, called Archaea surviving.

Then and only then…

That would neutralize *shrug say 10^10 of the remoteness and bring us down to 10^11 or 1 in a 100 billion chance of occurring without assistance.

or conversely, we have one or two MAJOR assumptions about life which we are missing or choosing to ignore.

Given the two choices Ockham’s Razor says that we select for ‘There is something MAJOR we are missing about this whole process scientifically’ which is not a “gap” in our knowledge – but rather the MAJORITY of the domain itself – option. As a skeptic, I choose this second option.

I'm also trusting that the high number of programmers/software engineers on our forum can at least appreciate the above.

This whole work is engineering porn. It's definitely a precendent for my experience, of conceptual delivery unconfounded and simplified without omitting any required components

 

[Jack the Ripper]

Yes, in short: punctuated equilibrium.
Evolution, in an ironic twist, proves God. Because we find like essentially a signature you mentioned. We find that long periods of stasis are interrupted by extremely rapid change, which is then followed by indefinite amount of stasis:
dragonflies have had exactly 30 000 lenses for how 300,000 million years, predating dinosaurs by over 100 million. This is a whole miracle in it's own right. I'll tell you what it is, it's spontaneous rearrangement of billions of nucleotides in a haphazard manner, meanwhile mathematicians rule out the possibility of 84 cubes landing on one specific set of sides as 0, they rule it.
Human beings did not evolve, animals did, the descendants of Adam interbred with other hominids who were human-shaped animals, the Neanderthals, Denisovans, and their African equivalents, which is why we share their DNA, and the reason behind separation of our tribes. There are no such 'entities' you mentioned.